Want Money Got Money with Sam Kamani

12: From selling Brick computers to raising over $40million with guest - John Holt

August 25, 2020 John Holt, Sam kamani
Want Money Got Money with Sam Kamani
12: From selling Brick computers to raising over $40million with guest - John Holt
Chapters
Want Money Got Money with Sam Kamani
12: From selling Brick computers to raising over $40million with guest - John Holt
Aug 25, 2020
John Holt, Sam kamani

In this episode I interview John Holt, John is involved in multiple things like a true entrepreneur. 

  • He is a Co-founder of Kiwi Landing pad. A community of over 1000 startups and 6000+ founders
  • He in on the board of Airways NZ, who manage over 30Million sq km of airspace over New Zealand
  • He is on the board and committee of FREE FOR ALL 
  • He has had multiple successful exits

John also has extensive experience of working with startups and scaling startups. 

Some key takeaways from this episode are:-

  1. How to raise funding
  2. What to look for in a prospective investor
  3. What investors look for in a startup
  4. How to sell

You can connect with John by following him on twitter or Linkedin
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kiwiholty/
https://www.kiwilandingpad.com/
https://twitter.com/kiwilandingpad
https://twitter.com/KiwiHolty

Links mentioned in the podcast
Book John is reading right now.

Trail Blazer - Marc BENIOFF

https://www.amazon.com/Trailblazer-Business-Greatest-Platform-Change/dp/1984825194/ref=nodl_

Russell Brand Podcast:

https://luminarypodcasts.com/listen/russell-brand-395/under-the-skin-with-russell-brand-luminary-exclusive/d55de7eb-6f34-48e6-aee4-48703f8fb675?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjcCp5c2y6wIVVLaWCh3U5wp1EAAYASAAEgJ4EPD_BwE&country=NZ

If you enjoyed this episode then please subscribe, I will be interviewing other successful founders and investors to provide you a shortcut to success.

Show Notes Transcript

In this episode I interview John Holt, John is involved in multiple things like a true entrepreneur. 

  • He is a Co-founder of Kiwi Landing pad. A community of over 1000 startups and 6000+ founders
  • He in on the board of Airways NZ, who manage over 30Million sq km of airspace over New Zealand
  • He is on the board and committee of FREE FOR ALL 
  • He has had multiple successful exits

John also has extensive experience of working with startups and scaling startups. 

Some key takeaways from this episode are:-

  1. How to raise funding
  2. What to look for in a prospective investor
  3. What investors look for in a startup
  4. How to sell

You can connect with John by following him on twitter or Linkedin
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kiwiholty/
https://www.kiwilandingpad.com/
https://twitter.com/kiwilandingpad
https://twitter.com/KiwiHolty

Links mentioned in the podcast
Book John is reading right now.

Trail Blazer - Marc BENIOFF

https://www.amazon.com/Trailblazer-Business-Greatest-Platform-Change/dp/1984825194/ref=nodl_

Russell Brand Podcast:

https://luminarypodcasts.com/listen/russell-brand-395/under-the-skin-with-russell-brand-luminary-exclusive/d55de7eb-6f34-48e6-aee4-48703f8fb675?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjcCp5c2y6wIVVLaWCh3U5wp1EAAYASAAEgJ4EPD_BwE&country=NZ

If you enjoyed this episode then please subscribe, I will be interviewing other successful founders and investors to provide you a shortcut to success.

John Holt: [00:00:00] I definitely was, um, try to, to do two things. I really, uh, sort of see the value of raising money around one is reducing the risk for yourself.

[00:00:07] I mean, these things,  uh, ventures I've always said venture is just adventure So it's the a and the d  fell off somewhere and the process of, um, of the years. Um, but I think reducing a bit of that personal risk. Um, but also ideally bringing in some more smarts expertise or networks or access to the market, not just through the money, but through the types of investors that you bring on board.

[00:00:32] And I think that's, um, that's pretty well understood now, but my early ventures that was, um, that was not necessarily as clearly linked. So a lot of people just locked with people with lots of money and certainly, a lot of people, lots of money often just look for, for, you know, ventures that they sort of had a inkling wouldn't be, would be successful.

[00:00:50] Um, and there wasn't really an intertwining of the two, but, um, uh, I've raised a number of, I think I ended it up last year, probably around $40 million. Uh, in total, across a number of companies and yeah, it was a direct involvement in fundraising over the last 10 or 15 years, which is, which is not a lot compared to some people, but it's enough to learn a few tricks. 

[00:01:12] Hello, dreamers and action. Welcome to another episode of want money got money. I'm your host, Sam Kamani 

[00:01:20]Sam Kamani: [00:01:20] Today I'm interviewing a very special guest John Holt.  

[00:01:25] John founded. landing pad along with Sam Morgan and with active support of the New Zealand government, as well as investors such as sir, Stephen Tindall, Phil mcCaw. Simon holdsworth and craig Elliott.

[00:01:41]John is also on the board and committee of multiple other startups and organizations so without any further ado let's get into it

[00:01:50] Sam Kamani: [00:01:50] welcome 

[00:01:51] to the show, John, you are a serial entrepreneur. You have founded multiple startups. You have had multiple exits. From what I understand, you have managed to raise funding for multiple ventures and you do so much for the. Tech startup community here in New Zealand. So just wanted to find out what you are working on these days.

[00:02:14] John Holt: [00:02:14] Yeah, sure. Thank you, Sam. Thanks for having me along. so I believe that, staying young is, is really all about variety. So I try and keep my hand in things that are quite diverse. And, also I believe that. They have to be fun. So that's my combo. Fun and variety. So to answer your question at the moment, I'm passionately involved in, a charitable trust called free for all a free for all.co.nz.

[00:02:37]The wonderful team, Putti apps, and, that was our for good, project on the chair and a shareholder in Putti. It was our full good program, the year before last. it's a charitable trust. That's focused on waste reduction, waste minimization. So a lot of people don't know that 75% of waste and landfill is actually perfectly reusable.

[00:02:58]items, mostly household items, books, toys, games. So we have started a, supporting, fantastic, social entrepreneur, the Glint without employer here locally in Wellington, with the national website. So everyone can get involved on the freefall.co.nz. And if they've got anything they want to share with people, but it's actually all about, people, basically repurposing items rather than throwing them away into the landfill.

[00:03:23]so that we get this wonderful jewel effect. So it's been, it's been a really Jenny being involved in that. they play on the cheer and the charitable trust. I'm still involved in some board activity. I'm on the board of the UAC. So we're a, your navigation services provider, a and S P. So we run about 30 million square kilometers of airspace.

[00:03:40]quite a large organization, about 750 staff, obviously significantly impacted by, our friend COVID-19. So that's been, it's been interesting as a director, both of us and just observer and involved in the aviation industry and the challenge facing that. And I'm also working on a new venture.

[00:03:58]getting back in the trenches as a founder, it's an idea I'm in the vision that I had for a number of years now. And I've shared it with you quite deeply and. And had your input into it, which was fantastic. That's cool. Purpose exchange. Yeah, we have a, a preliminary website up called purpose exchange.com and it is really all about, helping companies and consumers come together around what, these different companies and brands are doing to help address these universal problems we have around social and environmental issues.

[00:04:27] So generation Z in particular, which I think should be a. But again, just point to a lot of entrepreneurs because that's, that's the sort of consumer sweet spot and every five to 10 years in terms of speed, in terms of percentage of as humans looking for solutions to problems they have, they're the most purposeful generation we've ever had.

[00:04:46] On the planet. So they look at the companies who are involved in producing good products and services, but also actually they were looking at the purpose of the companies and better than the generations like mine, who will raise an eyebrow, at least they will actually actively direct their dollars.

[00:05:02] And the time to different companies, if they're not happy with the way that those companies behave, from a purpose point of view. So I might be the best product or service, but they will actually actively not choose to support those companies. It's quite hard for them to do that research these days because companies quite understandably.

[00:05:20] Put the products and services on their main website and their main pages. And often, they're the views and their purpose around sustainability and giving to the community are a little bit hidden away on the website, but on different tabs and so forth. So really inconsistent consumer experience.

[00:05:36] Trying to understand what these companies are doing. So previous exchange brings that all together, creates a company page on the exchange, but it's really just focused on this sustainability society and environmental emotional, and puts the product and service the one side. Very excited about that.

[00:05:53]and, and on the tail end of the early stage of Parenthood Sam, five children, youngest now, 13 and, three years of end of this year, basically out into the young adult world. So we're graduating as parents from the early stage of parenting. I understand from parents later down the stage that we've still got a better.

[00:06:13] Involvement to have, which would be cold, but I'm not changing nappies or, teaming, lots of school functions. yeah, that's where I'm at. And I'm in of course Kiwi landing page finally, but not, but at least last is, there's a thriving community, 10 years old this year. and it was a 20 year vision for me about seeing whether we could.

[00:06:32] Meaningfully play a role on the impact of, technology and innovation on new Zealand's economy. And, the people in general. So that's, there's been a wild ride. We're just re-imagining that at the moment. So if I had an ask, it would be anyone that has any ideas, particularly young entrepreneurs about capability or things that are missing in the system.

[00:06:50] There's a lot of support out there, but we can always do better. And we're just reimagining how we. Focus Kiwi landing pad for including probably a name change because let's face it with the pandemic. There's not a lot of landing going on now. So probably going to be inappropriate for it. 

[00:07:07]Sam Kamani: [00:07:07] Kiwi landing pad has done such good things for the New Zealand stack.

[00:07:13]community and, over the last 10 years I have used it on multiple occasions. Every time I've been  in San Francisco, I've used Kobo and thanks to the connections for Kiwi landing pad and I've been there. And, back then when, Sean Simpson was involved and is to do entrepreneur dinner type thing once a month, whenever and used to go to those sort of things. yeah, it's great. It is. It's a, wonderful community that you have created with that. looking back at your entrepreneurship journey, how did it all get started or what was your first venture? 

[00:07:51] John Holt: [00:07:51] My first venture was actually a lemonade stand.

[00:07:54]when I was eight years old, outside my house. And, I need to tell the story, cause I find that amusing. but I had what I thought at that time was an unfair advantage. lemonade stands quite regular then, but, my grandmother's cousin drove the number two bus and went past their house.

[00:08:10]Haywood was my best stop across the road from our house, but he would stop the bus on very hot days. Basically implying that people should get out briefly and buy some lemonade from the very serendipitously placed a lemonade stand. So that was my first entree into sort of junior entrepreneurship.

[00:08:30]and then, computer consulting business and the last year of school, back then, very different tech environment. It was around the things called Novell networks. Yeah, I 

[00:08:39] Sam Kamani: [00:08:39] have, I have seen the logo back in the days on the black and white screen or the green and black screens, the Nobel network's logo.

[00:08:48] Yes, I am a dinosaur. 

[00:08:51]John Holt: [00:08:51] good. I'm right with you there. and, showing both our age, this was when the word processor of the day was called WordPerfect and the best version of it, you could choose from 12. Graphical images that you could select the command that would actually appear on your dot matrix printer paper.

[00:09:06] I know we've lost half the audience here in terms of what on earth is even dot matrix. so yeah, so those are my early ventures and, and then I hit a security company that I created another friend of mine at university. So we. we got onto a physical security, so it hasn't all been around software and tech, but, I think that's what makes you a more robust than a better entrepreneur and needed the value.

[00:09:27] Getting into the sorts of industries. 

[00:09:29] Sam Kamani: [00:09:29] Absolutely. Do you say that pretty much that you know, that all that variety, does make you a better entrepreneur. The other thing that I have often seen with entrepreneurs is that they are really good at selling, but then it is selling their ideas, concepts, vision, mission, whatever it might be, not necessarily a product.

[00:09:52] What was the first sort of the significant thing that you sold? 

[00:09:59] John Holt: [00:09:59] Yeah. So again, bringing our spec and prehistoric time, alright. They used to get a magazine religiously through America magazine. For those of you not at the age of seminars, there's a type of bound document, which you hear lots of stuff and a little bit like Wikipedia or Facebook, or, stuff.

[00:10:16] And, and I saw one day a, a new style of computer. So it wasn't a big box that sat on your desk. It was called the brick. And the concept of the brick was that you would, the brick was about the size of a telephone book. Again. Apologies for those that haven't actually ever had a telephone book taking the day, probably about this big.

[00:10:36] And the idea was that it was so expensive to get anything portable as a computer that the most, the cheapest portable computer. When I was looking at, I spent 1998 was $36,000. And this brick, 

[00:10:48] Sam Kamani: [00:10:48] there is money. That would be massive amount. That would be like a hundred thousand dollars. 

[00:10:54] John Holt: [00:10:54] Yeah. What later on. So you could be portable, but you just couldn't afford to live in a house or anything else around it.

[00:11:00]so these people come up with this cool idea of this brick. It was, it was quite a nice looking device. It was graphite and color. And the idea was that you bought a monitor and again, monitors, we're talking about CRT monitors. Such a massive, and so you would have a monitor at your work and a monitor at your house keyboard, and you would just conveniently put this brick in your briefcase.

[00:11:21]this is a wild glossary. People are gonna have to look this up, but, and carry the brick computer between. The two locations. So I was the reseller New Zealand today, and that was my first real sales job. I sold three of them and all that. If you bought the monitors and people definitely, they were about $18,000 each.

[00:11:40]and that was a four, eight, six easy exam. So that's probably about, less than 5% of the power of an iPhone. Yeah. 

[00:11:48] Sam Kamani: [00:11:48] Yeah. if that, 

[00:11:50]

[00:11:50]yeah. So now that is a very interesting story, but on the positive side, if you did carry that brick around, you would definitely get a workout incidentally 

[00:12:01] John Holt: [00:12:01] and actually sell that feature.

[00:12:03] Sam, it's very helpful. I wish you were back there back then. I could have integrated that wellness side of it as well. 

[00:12:09] Sam Kamani: [00:12:09] Yes. 

[00:12:11] John Holt: [00:12:11] Yeah, it's hard selling, isn't it? I was literally just putting ads in the newspaper, and the computer page, which was quite a big page back then and just wide range of people and quiet, some completely nuts with my money.

[00:12:23] And I was just, there was no other way to put it. They were early adopters. 

[00:12:27] Sam Kamani: [00:12:27] Yup. Yup. No, that's very true. cool. what about, for some of your ventures, have you ever raised money or funding for them or did you always sell finance? 

[00:12:39] John Holt: [00:12:39] No, I definitely was, try to do two things. I really, see the value of raising money around one is reducing the risk for yourself.

[00:12:46]these things, ventures I've always said venture is just adventure. So it's the a, and the d fell off somewhere and the process of, of the years. but I think reducing a bit of that personal risk. but also ideally bringing in some more smarts expertise or networks or access to the market, not just through the money, but through the types of investors that you bring on board.

[00:13:08] And I think that's, that's pretty well understood now, but my early ventures that was, that was not necessarily as clearly linked. So a lot of people just locked with people with lots of money and certainly a lot of people, lots of money often just look for, ventures that they had a inkling wouldn't be, would be successful.

[00:13:23]and there wasn't really an intertwining of the two but, I've raised a number of, I think I ended it up last year, probably around $40  in total, across a number of companies and yeah, it was a direct involvement in fundraising over the last 10 or 15 years, which is not a lot compared to some people, but it's enough to learn a few tricks.

[00:13:43] It 

[00:13:43] Sam Kamani: [00:13:43] is. And also you have done it across a number of different industries and different niches and different markets around like globally, so that you would have so many war stories. I'm sure from that if, you had to give, I don't know, one or two quick lessons to someone just starting out. what do you think their first step should be?

[00:14:07] If say they have a MVP, they have few users. They want to go down this route of funding. What should they do? 

[00:14:16] John Holt: [00:14:16] Yeah, I think one of the key things I see and my former self, and certainly when I'm trying to help others around us is really doing more work than I normally see around identifying the type of this.

[00:14:28] So that would fit your, your beach or your stage. So that's really, a startup is obviously pretty self explanatory, but even then, A lot of companies I see will describe themselves as startups in five or 10 years down the track with a number of customers and a number of, and significant revenue.

[00:14:45]it's a little bit more obvious now. really finding and also investors realize close to select, publish a lot more of this information, but really finding a hunting ground for aligned investors in terms of the stage that they invest them. a lot of them are really great in the sense that, they're not great in the sense that they're not in your stage, but they publish this information and they say, we invest at a series of they live and even better.

[00:15:08] They often consider they gotten very broad as well. They often just say, that's, more than a million dollars of revenue and a growth rate of  and they really spell it out because it's a real waste of time for both parties, especially, to your question, when you're really, you've got a prototype, you've probably worked on that, Either full time and the consequential results in terms of your bank balance.

[00:15:28] So you've got a lot of pressure to get that next day, you'll get some financial help or, you're trying to make that leap to the venture full time by getting some funding support. So you really don't have a lot of time in either sort of scenario. but to me, Back to your question is it's about making that list and being smart about doing the research about it so that you actually have less potential investors to talk to on it rather than more.

[00:15:49]to me, it's not a game of quality and I think investors will respect you for that as well. If you've done that research and you can say to them, I'm coming to you with the stage of venture and this type of industry solving this sort of problem. Because I see from your website or I hear from people, but before that, this is an area that's of interest to you.

[00:16:10] And here's why I think my particular venture will, will be something worth listening to, and that's what I will do. 

[00:16:18] Sam Kamani: [00:16:18] That is excellent advice. That less is more innovative, quality over quantity. It's not a shotgun approach. You just reach out to everyone. And then, that would just add so much more time as well.

[00:16:32] Yeah. 

[00:16:33] John Holt: [00:16:33] So I think, I think just one point to that, founders, even more important to me about that is I think the same applies for sales, getting sales and spending the time cause they don't all disclose and certainly spending the time on really well qualified prospects who really do have the pain really do have not just the ability to, to purchase the solution, but to purchase it from you.

[00:16:59] Yeah. And this is where I really learned a few lessons. The yeah. Early days of my first startup to others, sonar sucks. we've got a lot of interest from very large companies in the UK and we only had about four or five customers and the person that we were dealing with making a huge amount of positive sounds about problem may head, how they could see us solving this without very rudimentary early, approach in product.

[00:17:24] But being a reality, probably about six months later that, they were in the HR team and an enterprise business. There's not biased stuff. In terms of the full process from an HR team is that there's the chief financial officer. There's a procurement department and they just simply that either we're going to have the rules, to permit an acquisition of products or software from three.

[00:17:45] Three people working on doors. Cause we ran out of money for desks, out of Auckland, for a London enterprise company. 

[00:17:51] Sam Kamani: [00:17:51] Yeah, absolutely. And also my experience has been that B to B always takes a lot longer. the same cycles and the bigger the company you sell to, or, it's even worse if you ever sell to any government or any bureaucratic department that said it is a, you need to have a good runway and what you're born for any startup.

[00:18:14] Doing anything in that space. 

[00:18:17] John Holt: [00:18:17] Totally. 

[00:18:17]Sam Kamani: [00:18:17] so yeah, so now that's great. if you had to think back and if, I don't know, mistakes is not the right word, but, if you had to advise yourself as a John, what would advise would that be? Or, if you're starting all over again, What would you do?

[00:18:36] John Holt: [00:18:36] Yeah, that's a great question. I try and ask myself that very regularly because I find, and I'm going to use the word quite openly. I find myself making the same mistakes time and time again. I think the biggest ones for me are figuring out who you are as a person. and I'm not going to go woo on you here.

[00:18:53]I think there is a bit of a spiritual element. Lot of the execution and success of these companies is about a team of people, certainly with some skills and capabilities, but a team of people who can just get on. and, like they compliment each other, not just in terms of their CV or their technical skills or their sales skills, but just in their ability to basically create a cohesive team.

[00:19:16]and what I mean by cohesive team is that, the people are, like good people, obviously, they share the same values. but they're also cohesive in the way that, they operate in terms of things like receiving feedback, giving feedback, being open and honest, this was a game, an early stage we're, every minute counts and you are going to make mistakes.

[00:19:37] It's not about how to eliminate the mistakes. It's how to minimize them and how to get onto them as quickly as you can, before they start costing you real money and diversion from the right path. And ultimately that it just never comes down to it. Anything about the team you have around you and that's anything from the advisors or, later on in the piece, the directors or the board that you have through to every employee.

[00:20:01]I always look back and say, If the people fit doesn't feel right, and this is not anything to do with the people not being good people or, ah, that overall, but you've got to look at it quite specifically around what it is you're trying to do, create this. I have people dynamic look around a bit to me as the one that I always perhaps don't spend as much time on as I think I do now, but it's taken me 50 years to figure that out.

[00:20:24] Yeah, 

[00:20:25] Sam Kamani: [00:20:25] it is so interesting that you say this. just two days ago, I was talking that like for the same podcast for this podcast, a Swedish investor who's based in Spain and we used to run an accelerator incubator, few years ago and I was asking him, how do you choose. Startup to invest in.

[00:20:43] And he said the same thing, because at early stage, it's really hard to tell, but you do look at the team spirit that they have, because that is going to be vital to know if they are going to be able to go further or, or ended they're working on the same vision and the mission. But.

[00:21:02] Yeah, you pretty much captured the, you say that so much better than that, yeah. 

[00:21:07] John Holt: [00:21:07] Sure. But I'm glad that there's more than one of us on the same page, but the fascinating thing about it, Sam as that, that really only becomes clear to you, to your original question, which is a great question as well.

[00:21:18]what do you think about it now? when you've been through, the cycle of several companies and had a sample size compared, because I remember in one particular case, sitting at a lunch with a founder group that I was part of and, one of the founders, a technical person, lovely man.

[00:21:35]very principled. And he said to me, he said, there was a number of us as founders and he said, John, you know how we make sure we all stay friends and, we all stay as one team. And I said, Marco, that the answer to that is that, we won't be able to guarantee that. we have to be able to do is have those conversations up front about what happens when we realize I'd say self, It's a self made decision.

[00:21:58] Someone says, I just don't have the appetite, the personal circumstances changed and so forth. So yeah. I think if I was advising people in that early stage, just been about a time, not just on that people fit, but once you do it, yeah. You have the right people around you, those open conversations about how are we going to deal with conflict?

[00:22:13] How are we going to challenge ourselves about how well we perform in their own roles and the business model we agreed at the beginning versus now. we've got to, and often these conversations get really challenging. The better the business has done. Because you realize that some areas had done really well in some heavens, which usually, quite often, almost always ends up being somebody who has just not been able to live up to that next level of capability.

[00:22:38] And they really had conversations. I think if you talked a little bit of that yeah. The likelihood of them, which seems crazy at the start, cause you just don't have it anything wrong, but little bit about the likelihood of those future scenarios and how you're going to handle them. I think he runs a lot better off.

[00:22:51] Sam Kamani: [00:22:51] Very true. before we finish this, I have, three quick fire questions. And first one is there a book that you are reading at the moment? 

[00:23:02] John Holt: [00:23:02] The book I'm reading at the moment? it's Marc Benioff's. autobiography, Mark's the founder of Salesforce dot and I. Cannot remember the title for you off the top of my head.

[00:23:13] It's that I can see what it looks like sitting on the side of my, 

[00:23:15] Sam Kamani: [00:23:15] hi, we'll put the links in the description. Yeah, those too. So yeah, that's not a very good book 

[00:23:21] John Holt: [00:23:21] and a great example of a purposeful organization mind, in my opinion, salesforce.com. Yup. 

[00:23:27] Sam Kamani: [00:23:27] That is very cool. I was just looking at the first version of the first website of Salesforce.

[00:23:32] And it is very interesting that, it is very hard to see the vision and how things turn out. this is from. Someone who is an investor here sharing that, you can tell from, if you look at the first version of Salesforce, that this is what it will become. So it is very hard to know it early stages.

[00:23:52]second, is there a podcast that you do recommend people should listen 

[00:23:57] John Holt: [00:23:57] to? yeah. that's probably a less aligned to tech and innovation directly by. I love Russell brand's, style of podcasting. I act a comedian, all around crazy human, very purposeful human. So he has a series, Russell brand.

[00:24:15]yeah, that's my go to at the moment then whenever he produces something new 

[00:24:19] Sam Kamani: [00:24:19] cool. I'll check it out. And final question. If you had unlimited time, money and resources, what would you build? 

[00:24:28]John Holt: [00:24:28] I'm really aligned on that. So I would actually just build purpose exchange my new venture faster.

[00:24:33] Sam Kamani: [00:24:33] That is fantastic. that's really good to see that. Yeah, you're completely, you're all in you're fully bought in and that so well, either 

[00:24:40] John Holt: [00:24:40] that, or I've just got a long shopping Sam of stuff. That's either kind of costs me a lot of money or time that is immediately in the front of my ear. 

[00:24:49] Sam Kamani: [00:24:49] It is, it has been very interesting, I, one thing I wanted to do after this, like after I've recorded a few hundred episodes over the next year, or two is I want to make a database and just.

[00:25:02]split out how many founders, cause there's only two answers that I got so far and first 20 interviews, I'm about 60% say that they are, they want to just build what they already want to. And then the other 40%, Say that they it's, Rockins our space. The only two I haven't got there is no third answer I've got so far.

[00:25:27] John Holt: [00:25:27] No, and I'd be, it would be really interesting, but I'd say it's a pretty small spreadsheet. Cause you only have to follow up. 

[00:25:32] Sam Kamani: [00:25:32] I only need two columns. Yes. It's either space and rockets or it is what, their current project because. They so believe in it, they're so passionate about it. So that's the only two, but yeah.

[00:25:43] Anyway, it is fantastic too, to learn a bit more and to get better, more insight into your journey. And I'm sure quite a few founders who are listening to this would get that insight as well. finally, if someone wants to connect with you, reach out to you, where can they find 

[00:26:00] John Holt: [00:26:00] you? Yeah, sure. So they can reach me on, John J O H N at, for landing pad or the real deep entrepreneurial stuff.

[00:26:08] klp.org.nz, or, anyone interested in purpose exchange. I'm talking to anybody about that in terms of theirviews about our companies, deliver on their purpose as well as their profit. There's John J O H N purpose exchange to eat, dot com. 

[00:26:23] Sam Kamani: [00:26:23] Fantastic. I'll put all those links underneath us, but thank you once again for your time and have a lovely rest of the day.

[00:26:31] John Holt: [00:26:31] Thanks Sam. Great chatting.